If you identify yourself or part of yourself as introvert, then my guest today will make for interesting listening. Berry Kruijning, Principal with Crowning Communications, transforms communication for introvert leaders so they can become assertive, confidence and impactful in their leadership skills.
INTRO
In this episode of our Rising Resilience series, you’ll discover the qualities that enable introverts to build resilience and grow their leadership skills to become more impactful and confident, assertive communicators. She works with emerging leaders and high-performance teams worldwide with coaching and training programs in the key leadership skills of communication, conflict management, and interpersonal relationships at work.
Berry’s philosophy around leadership centred on the principles of courage and authenticity. As a seasoned expert in leadership development and communication, executive coach, and introvert leader herself, Berry understands the challenges introvert leaders face in today’s loud and demanding world.
She works with leaders in for-profit, non-profit, social purpose, and government organisations. Her best and most successful clients are starting to work with her in their late 20s, 30s, or early 40s to prepare themselves for a significant leadership role. They’re looking to position themselves for a promotion or to succeed in a new role. Very specifically, they’re looking to leverage their natural strengths as introverts to be the most effective, impactful leaders they can be.
With over 25 years of international experience, in our conversation, Berry shares her innovative approach to building resilience, how to bounce forward so you can turn challenges into opportunities for growth.
Whether you’re struggling with self-doubt, preparing for a high-stakes presentation, or seeking to elevate your leadership presence, Berry’s insights are designed to help introverted entrepreneurs and leaders thrive, or seeking to elevate your leadership presence, your credibility, your authority in the marketplace.
This episode’s a must listen for introverts in business who want to leverage their natural strengths, build resilience and lead with confidence in today’s fast paced, high demand environment. Join us and learn how to rise resilient as an introverted leader, transforming your entrepreneurial journey.
PREFER TO LISTEN?
INTERVIEW
JAY:
Today on the Leverage Business Podcast, I have Berry Kruijning joining us. Welcome, Berry. It’s so nice to have you here and we’ve known each other for a long time, but we haven’t actually talked for a while. So even better. I hope we’ll have a wonderful conversation.
BERRY:
Yeah, Jay, thank you so much for the invitation and I’m really excited to have this conversation with you, and Yeah reconnecting with you too. It’s been a while.
JAY:
I’ve been following your LinkedIn posts, and there’s just so much that jumped out and I thought I’ve got to get you on this, because the series with Rising Resilient is all about tackling challenges and changes in your life and business with confidence, compassion and courage. And the work that you do is very much focused on how introverts navigate all of that. So it just seemed a really good perspective to bring into this series. So thank you for joining me.
BERRY:
Yeah, thanks for having me.
JAY:
What part of the theme- when you said yes – particularly kind of spoke to you that you thought, yeah, I’d love to do that.
BERRY:
Resiliency has been personally for me, like kind of a thread in my life, an ongoing thing that connects pieces, parts of my life, events in my life. And what I’m also really interested in is how I can help clients with that. So that resonated with me. The part that resonates about resilience is the bouncing back part, of course, but especially the bouncing forward part.
BERRY:
And I hope we get a chance to talk a little bit about that because resiliency It’s something that people do, not something that people have. And what people can do is they can bounce back, but then not bounce forward. They stop and they stop with, okay, getting up, brushing myself off and keep moving. So that’s bouncing back for me. But bouncing forward is really using resiliency as an opportunity for growth. Adversity not as your enemy, but adversity as an opportunity for personal growth. And every time you get a little bit better at it.
That’s what interests me is how do people do that and how can I help them with that? And it’s not in the focus of most of my coaching conversations, but it does come up.
JAY:
Yeah. It’s an element of it for sure. I love what you’ve just said. Actually, resilience is not something you have, it’s something you do. Because that’s been a common theme, I think, coming through, but bouncing forward is a new idea. So, we’ll come back to that.
Just for context, tell us a little bit about your work – like who you are, who do you serve? What do you do for them?
Yes. So currently I work with or over the last few years, I’ve been specializing working with introverted leaders on effective communication, developing effective communication skills. And it is interesting because a lot of leaders know how to communicate. However, introverted leaders hold themselves back because of a piece of confidence or the courage to speak up or, you know, some things. So I find myself working a lot on helping people with identifying limiting beliefs, working through that. So a lot of the communication challenges that we have, I’m finding are internal. It’s internal transformation. It’s like, how do we look at ourselves when we’re communicating?
So that’s a big part. I work with people on effective communication presenting with confidence, high stakes conversations – I have a strong background in conflict management. I’ve been coaching leaders for over 20 years now, first as part of an HR job. And then about 16 years ago, I started my own business and yeah, haven’t looked back actually. It’s just moving forward and adding more pieces. So I’m helping people with the whole leadership, the people leadership part, the people part of their job.
JAY:
We met, I think, when you were building that business. And I think you show up very differently as well. So I think you’ve applied some of your teachings to yourself in that respect, because you’re in a completely different environment, aren’t you, when you’re building your own business, as opposed to working in a corporate environment.
BERRY:
Oh, totally different. Yes. I have to say it’s one of the best personal leadership development seminars that there is like for 16 years, you know, that and raising two kids as a single mom. So those two things really formed me over the years. Yeah.
JAY:
Yeah, very good. With the clients that you support, how do they find you and what do they, what do they present with in terms of their challenges? What does that look like?
BERRY:
There’s a few ways people find me is either through LinkedIn – actually, I do get business through LinkedIn and through word-of-mouth referrals from colleagues. You know, so those are some areas. I have some people in my network that are well connected and that bring me clients.
JAY:
What is the set of criteria, if you like, where I’d go, Oh, you’ve definitely got to go speak to Berry.
BERRY:
Yeah, you would listen to leaders who say I am passed up for a promotion again because I need to work on my communication skills. Or managers that say, I wonder what the next step will be and how can I get there? I got to here with all my technical skills, but how do I get now to the next level? And they find that the next level is mostly about communication, influencing.
People say, I want more influence. I want more impact. How can I have more impact, as an introverted leader. People that are not feeling quite confident in communicating with their senior leaders.
So they will say something like, yeah, I have a presentation coming up with senior leaders, and I’m so nervous. It’s in three weeks and I’m already laying awake at night. So those are some things that people are saying. It’s mostly being underestimated, overlooked for opportunities.
Because as introverts, we do tend to be more quiet, less ostentatious about our work and about the accomplishments that we have. So yes, how can they make themselves more visible?
JAY: And are they people at all kinds of levels of seniority that you work with them.
BERRY: Yeah.
JAY: It’s not a junior problem so much.
BERRY: Oh no. It’s mostly, I would say it’s mostly middle management problem.
JAY: Okay, yeah.
BERRY: Mostly yes, first time people leaders. I love working with first time people leaders because they’re technically really strong. They got that piece, they have the confidence there, but now they need to lead a team. So that’s one group that I work with. But then I also work with the middle management that now needs to start communicating up and needs to start unlearning some of the kind of the more technical skills and be more strategic.
JAY: More people focused as well. Yeah.
BERRY:
I have a strong background in change management as well. So, I offer so much more than just like communication and confidence.
JAY: The whole context in which they’re working as well.
BERRY:
Yeah, but when it comes down to it, it comes to those pieces of: do I have the courage to speak up to my manager and say, Hey, I don’t agree. You know, where do I find that? And so things like that.
JAY:
What I’m hearing is there is like the inner game, inner work that they have to do on themselves and that courage, and as you say, confidence. But there’s the outer work, which is the actual delivery of effective communication, presumably. And then there’s the strategic drivers maybe around that as well? Or do you have a different way of putting that? What’s the framework for all of these different things coming together.
BERRY:
Yeah, so there’s the bigger picture of the strategy. Yeah. And there’s the picture of the details, the tactics, and how do we do it? Not necessarily what, and when I work with middle managers who need to connect the two, they need to connect the dots.
And sometimes the element is with their peers – it’s horizontal that is not going well that they like help with, but it’s mostly up. Because that’s a skill that they have not mastered yet. That’s an area in the organization that they have not been part of.
And so the framework is to look at the big picture, how does that connect with what they’re doing in their daily life. And what do they need from inside out, in order to make that connection and be effective in that.
JAY:
So there’s an element of clarity and there’s an element of confidence as they sort of come together. Yeah, I can see that.
One of the reasons I’m digging in is fascinating because there’s so much parity in business owners. They come with all their technical expertise and then they have to be, you know, marketing and doing sales and building a team potentially and managing development work. And that’s not the work they’ve done perhaps in their past career when they’ve been in a specific role doing a specific job. And often it is very technical.
It’s fascinating because as an entrepreneur as well, you’re juggling all these different hats and sometimes even that becomes the outer game and not the inner game. Because if you had a strategy, a marketing strategy and you have person A and person B, it’s exactly the same marketing strategy, but one succeeds and one fails.
So what’s the difference because the strategy, the tactics, the playbook, if you like, are all the same. To me, the difference is how the person’s approaching it, what their skill set is, what their confidence level is you know, all of those things. And I think that’s the same in this respect as well of how do you show up? Cause that person that’s lying there awake three weeks before the presentation, it’s almost self-sabotage.
BERRY:
Yes, it is totally. Yeah, really. And we have a choice in that, you know, we have a choice where we put our energy in. If you choose to be nervous about something, you can also choose to be relaxed about something. At least that’s how I see it.
JAY: Yeah. Yeah. So we learn it with age and wisdom. I don’t know. I don’t get quite so worried about things as I used to, but sure. Yeah.
BERRY:
Okay. So say you have a middle manager that turns up they’ve been referred to you or they found you because they know that they need to do some work on this. And they may well be coming at it from like, I need to improve my communication or I need to improve my confidence, but I’m an introvert so I have all of these, like things to overcome.
JAY:
How would you start with somebody? Like, what would be the steps? What would be your playbook for getting into it with them?
BERRY:
Yes. I really look at the person. Where are they at? And what is it that they need? And I don’t have like a signature system. I don’t have like this is the first step I walk you through. That’s the second step. What I often find myself starting with though is personal values. We do an activity in which we start with identifying personal values. Because values drive our behaviour.
And so it’s such a big piece in how we’re showing up, how we’re making decisions, how we prioritize things, and values are the foundation for our leadership voice. And when someone comes to me and they talk about yeah, I want to find my executive presence. I want to find my leadership voice in my communication. That’s where I often start.
And I have so many tools that I can pull up and it really is what does this person need. Because a lot of people already went through some kind of leadership program or some kind of communication program, or they already are in their career for a while and they’ve learned some thing or two. So I can customize to people’s needs.
JAY:
Do you have like some typical things that you find that your ideal client, if you like, or your typical client, what they most need help with? What are those needs? Or is it very varied?
BERRY:
No, it’s not very varied. That’s the interesting thing. And I alluded to that a little bit earlier. Mostly it is about beliefs that we hold about ourselves, the not being aware of the values that we hold, not being aware of the worth that we have, the value that we bring as introverted leaders in organisations – and I say we because I’m an introvert too – and not recognizing that – not recognising the innate strength that we have and not seeing the value of that and not being able to make that visible.
So I help people advocate for themselves and empower themselves. And I find it’s mostly the internal transformation work that we’re working on. And then we work on communication techniques, tactics. We work on recognizing people with different communication styles and be a versatile leader in that so we can actually tap into that, and come closer to someone’s style that is, might be slightly different than our style.
What I really emphasise with my clients is that we don’t have to become extroverts in order to be effective. We don’t have to be more extroverted. There are certain behaviours in certain situations that might be more effective than our default behaviours, but behaviours we choose. We don’t have to change who we are, but we can choose a different behaviour is that’s more effective in the moment.
JAY:
Yeah, I remember, like, sometimes I can even hear myself doing it. I say, oh, I sound like my brother. I basically borrowed some of his strengths to kind of counter where, like, if I need to step up, I’ll like put my Tony voice on. It’s kind of funny. And so it’s a little bit like that.
As you said, there’s a default, which is you can kind of retrench into almost, but then you can also put on a different hat. And I borrow shamelessly from all kinds of role models, if you like, and think, I like the way that they did that.
I think we do that with leadership as well, to some extent, and in marketing and business, there are certain leaders that you resonate with more than others. But I love what you just said there about, like, it’s not about changing ourselves or having to be something we’re not your natural state, but you can play around with it a little bit.
BERRY:
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So it sounds to me that you work with finding the strengths, the self work, the self-belief, work on that, and the values that drive everything. So there’s awareness there of what are my starting points and what are my non negotiables almost as well is what you’re saying, I think.
JAY:
What about quick wins? Cause I would imagine that some of this would take quite a while. I mean, you could almost go down to like, you actually need some counselling because there’s some trauma in your life that’s causing some of these things. But a lot of people, they say, you know, I’ve got this big presentation coming up. What would be quick wins that you could bring to somebody that’s struggling to come out of their introversion.
BERRY:
Yeah. Well, a quick win would be together preparing for a talk, preparing for, let’s say, an executive presentation, and go through the three pillars for presenting, which is the vocal, the verbal, and the visual. And we look at all three and we cover them all three. And we do have conversations about how prepare preparation is really 80 percent of the work in that.
So in like, I would say three to four sessions, I can really make a difference for people that are nervous about doing a presentation.
And, you know, this is one part of my work. But that would be a quick win. Another quick win would be helping someone prepare for a difficult conversation. Let’s say, a leader wants to ask for a promotion or ask for an increase in compensation and not even maybe a change in title, but at least be rewarded for, you know, all the good work that they do and that it stays most of the time invisible. So we can prepare for that. You know, that doesn’t take a whole lot of time.
If that’s what you talk about with quick wins. Very practical, that’s my orientation. My style is I’m direct, and I’m very practical. And so I always want people to walk out of a session with something that they can apply immediately, even if it’s like exchanging your “but” for an “and” or stop saying, I’m sorry. You know, things like that.
So there’s like things that we as coaches can hold up a mirror and say, Hey, I’m noticing you’re using this word a lot. Yeah. It takes your power away. Stop using it and use this instead. And that takes like two seconds to communicate that.
JAY:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I’m sure there’s a whole list of all of those things that we can check off. Like what are we doing?
You said earlier that conflict resolution is one of the things that you do, so there’s a whole spectrum, isn’t there, between difficult conversations and some real conflicts that are going on, personality conflicts or idea conflicts. I’m quite interested in what do you get into with somebody? And are you always working on the individual level? Or are you also working with their team or their person upwards or downwards as well?
BERRY:
Yes. So, there’s a lot of conflict and conflict is not necessarily like this big thing with yelling and screaming and all of that. This is a very broad definition, but in my experience, anytime there’s a difference in perspective, a difference in goal, a difference in just opinions, there is a conflict.
So what we’re getting into is that. And there’s often conflicts with bosses. People have no idea how to address that because you know, the boss is the boss and so often there’s a culture that does not allow for speaking up or there’s a cultural difference that does not, you know, that does not tolerate speaking up to someone in a higher position and say respectfully, I don’t agree with you.
And with conflicts, there’s always something challenged in us. We’re triggered by something, and we’re working on creating awareness. What is that? And we’re creating awareness around owning the experience instead of blaming others because blaming, you know, doesn’t get you anywhere. So really owning the experience in the way we talk about it too.
So we can say things like in my experience, this is, or from my perspective, you know, so we’re getting into just really being able to say, I don’t agree respectfully. I don’t agree with you. And how do you deal with that?
Another source of conflict is giving feedback. I work a lot with clients in that realm in how to give effective feedback. So we’re not getting a defensive reaction. Of course, we cannot control the reaction of the other person, but we can use language that will help someone hear you in your feedback. And how do you navigate a conversation like that so it doesn’t become an argument?
JAY:
Well, it’s a really interesting area because if it gets untreated, if you like, then that’s where anxiety and stress and overwhelm kind of piles up and probably takes people backwards. What would make somebody think I need to get some help? And what would they look for in terms of finding you?
BERRY:
Yeah, so they would look for like you mean, like a communication coach or effective communication.
JAY:
But would they see it themselves as that being what they need, if they’re just finding it hard to, as you said, to have a disagreement with somebody, particularly their boss. They want to say something, but they’re afraid or whatever. Not being able to speak your mind, it kind of festers, doesn’t it?
And so if someone says, look, I really want to do something about this. I want to be more confident in these situations, and be able to say what I want to say. What might they look for if they were to type in a search for some like guidance? I mean, I can’t imagine that they think: Oh, it must be a communications coach. What might they be looking for in terms of solutions or guidance?
BERRY:
Yeah. So I would say how to manage up. Okay. The question I think on their mind is, why did I get passed over for this promotion again? That would be a question. Yeah, yeah. You perhaps wouldn’t get to the fact that they have a challenge having those conversations until you dug into it.
Right. The work that I actually do with clients is not what they come for.
JAY:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That’s where I’m coming from with the question. You know, meet where they’re at. And what you’re saying is that they’re getting passed up, they’re not getting noticed. So when you dig into it, it’s often because they’re not speaking up.
BERRY:
Yeah. Yeah. They don’t have the impact that they want to have.
JAY:
So I said, we’ve come back to bouncing forward. Cause I think that’s a very interesting concept. Do you want to unpack that a little bit more than you did at the beginning and just say, well, what does that mean in practice?
BERRY:
I see setbacks as opportunities for growth. I’ve learned to see that that way and bouncing forward is really about becoming aware and reflecting on what are the lessons here that I need to learn? What’s good in this situation? Because we always look at what’s bad, we need to do a little bit effort often in looking at what’s good, what’s a benefit of this situation?
When we learn to reframe certain situations and explore meanings, different meanings that we have about an event, then we are able to not only bounce back, but really make a step forward in our growth as a person. And so next time, we can actually recover easier, faster from a setback, from like some kind of adversity, than let’s say 10 years ago or five years ago or yesterday.
JAY:
That came up as well in the first interview with Carmen Morrison, about building that kind of resilience muscle. Yeah. Way. Yeah. I mean, it’s part of resilience, but I’ve never heard it discussed as bouncing forward. So I love that expression. I’ve heard focusing forward from a business point of view and appreciative inquiry is something that we do a lot of in evaluation. But focusing forward is about being innovative and finding solutions in opportunities and obstacles is one way of putting it.
It feels to me that’s something that you can only do once you’ve got those foundations in place in terms of your personal values you mentioned, your self-belief, because that’s where you’ve got the strength then to go and do forward things.
BERRY:
And that can be shaken up, you know, depending on what the event is in your life, of course, you know, your feeling of self-worth can be shaken up. Let’s say for a relationship, when a relationship ends. For example, so that is, that’s hard work. And so, bouncing back for me is more like, okay, I got my life back on track.
JAY:
It’s like getting back to zero though, isn’t it?
BERRY:
That’s great. And that’s great. You know, I’m back on track and bouncing forward is just that extra little thing of, you know, something really good actually came out of this. Yeah. Yeah. Years ago, I was in a theatre show in Rotterdam, and I want to show you this, can I, I mean.
We haven’t shared the fact that we’ve got a Dutch connection here. Because yeah, Berry’s from the Netherlands originally, now living in the United States. Yeah. So what are you showing me there?
This is a little crocheted puppet, and I got it after this theatre show exhibit and it’s a little green monster almost like this is bad luck. And so the idea was, what they said was and what that means is like bad luck – adversity – is our new luck. Yeah. Yeah. And I loved that reframe. And I have it on my desk ever since. I think this is probably 10 years or 15 years ago.
JAY:
I’m sure that’s also why we like movies where there’s triumph over adversity. It’s the same theme really, isn’t it? And seeing opportunities in those difficult times – the ability to see positively and be optimistic as opposed to just kind of going into problems. I think it’s a really interesting one. I say I’m not a born optimist, but I’ve trained myself to be always looking for the bright side of life, as the Life of Brian film.
It can get irritating when people do that a lot, but I don’t think it does you any good to only be focusing on like regrets and the past and I should have done this differently. I’ve never been someone like that but optimism is something I’ve had to work at.
So back to your point earlier of like, you know, the default that we have, we don’t have to stick with it. We can rise above, which is the whole rising resilient.
BERRY:
Yes. Yes. And I do want to say, yes, optimism, and more positive outlook. I do want to make a note about that though, because sometimes we talk about the toxic effect of positivity. I do believe in going through the difficult feelings and all the emotions that come with resiliency building. That’s part of that. It’s kind of like your rite of passage is to have that move through you. So that makes sense. I think we do need to do that work in order to bounce forward into a more optimistic hopeful outlook.
It’s also you know yourself more as well by at least staying in that space for a little while and thinking how you responded to things as well. Yeah. I know you’re right. I mean, if you just sort of bury it all the time, then you’re just building up some dis-ease as we talked about in previous episodes. So yeah.
I’m really quite curious to hear what do you do, like as an introvert, as you said at the beginning how do you kind of work on yourself with this? Do you have a coach that helps you, that does what you do, that helps you? Do you apply your own techniques to yourself? What are the sorts of things that you lean into?
BERRY:
Yes, what I lean into is as an introvert, I go inside, I go, I find solitude, and I reflect, I write a journal, I process, and I can do that for quite a long time, actually. And so, and that’s the caveat, you know, for introverts is like we tend to overthink and so being aware of that. So that’s what I do. I have a couple close friends. I do work sometimes with a therapist to talk things through, someone without an agenda that can help me process some of the things you know the losses that I encounter or the, yeah, the adversity that. And I take really good care of myself. So in the sense of what I eat, what I put in my body, like no sugar, no wheat, you know, that really are, those are really mood killers to begin with.
And then working out, being in nature really helps me. So I do typical like solid, more solitude type activities. I do have close friends, so a tight knit little circle of people that I feel comfortable in. And I dance.
JAY:
And you sail, we talked about that at the beginning.
BERRY:
I dance and I sail. Sailing really is part of a lifestyle. And I kayak. But dancing is like the quick fix to any kind of blues feeling, really. And there’s a playlist and you put it on the play, within like two minutes.
JAY:
Yeah, yeah. A totally different vibe, totally different energy. I’m not a massive music person, but like that, I totally hear you. Because if I just need a bit of energy, then I put that on and it’s a little bit of a solitary dance. Like a breakout where you just kind of go crazy, right? And I’m laughing at myself doing it, but it’s incredibly empowering, energizing.
BERRY:
Yeah. Well, you know, if, if someone would see you, they would see someone that can take it to the top.
JAY:
Don’t take myself seriously. A little mini dance party. But you know, sometimes I have to remember to do those things. Because, and I was talking on a previous episode. It’s like, it feels sometimes that you have to force yourself to go out for a walk. Because like, oh, I haven’t got time for that. But when you do, it’s so invigorating. Again, it builds that muscle of like, these are the things that are non-negotiable for me that I have to do.
BERRY:
Yeah. I really designate that as sacred time. It’s like you know, my dog passed away six weeks ago and I have been walking every morning ever since. And I can go a little farther, go a little faster. So I walk for 40- 45 minutes in the morning and it’s a non-negotiable. It’s the first thing I do. I get out of bed and I go with my walking shoes on and I go out.
Those are priorities. And sometimes these things take discipline if we’re like really down. Start dancing in your living room. That’s where it starts.
JAY:
Maybe you need another little monster, like a dance monster.
BERRY:
Yeah, a little crocheted dance monster.
JAY:
To close off, tell me, what would you say is your positive superpower? Like if there was one thing that you would recommend to others for building resilience, bouncing forward, rising resilient, what would it be for you?
BERRY:
It’s really looking at reality, looking what is really going on and being able to reframe and ask myself, what’s the good in all of this? And I do that regularly. What’s the benefit here? So it’s the mind shift to, where one door closes, another door always opens problem more than one usually, and looking at what are those doors?
That’s what I really taught myself, and the ability to reframe an event that happens in our life, from something that makes us feel really bad to something that makes me feel really actually hopeful and optimistic. That is a great skill to have. And that has always been my focus. I had to develop that. But the last, I would say last 25 years.
JAY:
Now it’s more tacit.
BERRY:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s more intentional. It’s way more intentional now. Yeah.
JAY:
Well, more natural perhaps as well. That’s the thing you go to. Yeah. Oh, I love this. This is like very relaxed and we’ve gone in lots of different directions.
BERRY:
Yeah.
JAY:
Another way of thinking about resilience from the perspective of those who are more introverted in nature and then to couple it with communication and leadership. That’s super helpful. So thank you so much.
Berry Kruijning, everyone from Crowning Communications.
BERRY:
Thanks so much for this inspiring conversation. I loved talking with you.
JAY:
I think we could go on a bit longer and get even deeper into things, but another time.
BERRY:
Thank you, Jay. Thanks for reaching out. And let’s keep in touch.
Connect with Berry
- Website: https://crowningcommunications.com
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/berrykruijning/
Download Berry’s free guide to learn how to Master Difficult Conversations
