As an ex corporate person and business owner, my guest today Lily Woi understands what it’s like to be constantly firefighting endless challenges, feeling overwhelmed and without the headspace to focus on the things that matter most. Through our conversation, her resilience, and understanding of how to build it, shines through as she shares how to develop conscious self management skills for strong leadership and success.
My rising resilient series guest today is Lily Woi, an executive coach leadership expert and culture change consultant. Lily is both a published author and international speaker. She’s been a contributor to brains magazine and featured on Forbes. In our interview, she talks through her approach and techniques that can help you shift behaviours, unlock potential, and develop as a courageous leader in your career or business.
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As an entrepreneur, making positive changes that drive real value often seems like an unattainable goal. So, Lily is on a mission to change the status quo by helping people develop conscious self management skills.
If a shift towards greater calmness, confidence and courage is something you want to see for yourself, then tune into this interview. Lily is uniquely qualified to share her experience and techniques to help shift emotional states and behaviours, unlock potential, and build resilience from the inside out.
Lily’s book, Quiet Confidence: Thriving in a World Full of Noise, while written for introvert corporate professionals can also help entrepreneurs in practical ways to create a space where they can bring their whole selves to work and succeed in their profession.
Lily has made remarkable strides in our coaching work together, her resilience shines through in her work with executive clients, as well as in her dedication to provide effective culture change solutions for forward thinking companies. Tune in, as she shares her experience and techniques to help you shift behaviours, unlock potential, and develop as a courageous leader in your career or business.
INTERVIEW
JAY: Lily, welcome to the leveraged business podcast. It’s wonderful to have you here.
LILY: A pleasure to be here.
JAY: Fantastic. So, thank you very much for joining me because I think you’ve got a lot to offer and not only for yourself, and how you show up but also how you help clients, because they hit these kind of transition points in life. Resilience was a theme that kept coming up, and how it shows up for us in our lives as entrepreneurs. And I know we’ve talked on a few of these points in our coaching together. It felt like you were a great person to invite. The sub-theme [for the Rising Resilient series] is ‘Tackling challenges and changes in your life and business with confidence, compassion, and courage’.
What part of the theme speaks to you the most and why?
LILY: I think when you first reached out with the theme, it definitely resonated with me. Not only the broader topic of resilience, but also tackling it with courage and compassion. I think it is something that I certainly need to show up with my clients, but also something that I need to work with my clients to show up with.
You know, I work with clients in the C-suite and change makers in driving better business performance and achieving the outcomes you’re looking for by focusing on their people. So how do we kind of change behaviours? Energize their team, transform their culture to something that is more suited to what they’re looking to achieve.
And there are so many setbacks and disappointment that they would face and that I will need to face with them, that without resilience we are not going to get there. So, I think this topic, it just encompasses a really, really key aspect of the work that I do with my clients.
JAY: You’re right. Well, look, I’m going to drop this question in, I haven’t warned you about but what do you think that when you get to like a C-level role in or part of your career does it does resilience need, like, anything different?
LILY: I wouldn’t say it’s different. I think it’s the same sort of resilience that you need to have throughout in your life and in your career as a person. But the sort of challenges that you face, it’s at a different level and the risk, it certainly feels a bit bigger and it’s also the concept that I do agree with is: it’s lonely at the top.
The level of resilience or the amount of resilience you need to develop as you kind of move through or get to the very top of the pyramid is certainly higher because the people around you, there’s less that understands, you know, the challenges that you’re going through.
JAY: Yeah, and I imagine that’s equally true of business. Like when you start out, it’s like, well, I really want this to work. But I’m okay if it doesn’t, because I’ve got like other things. I’m still doing a part time job or I’ve got other sources of income. So sometimes people aren’t in there with two feet in business.
So, when they start, they maybe think, well, I want this to work, but I don’t have to make it work. But then as you get some success, you think: oh, actually this is working. And then the risk of something going wrong becomes more significant to you. So, I probably didn’t put that very well, but I think I love the idea that you’ve put forward here about the risks are bigger.
Because when you start in business, you might feel it’s a risk, especially if you’re investing in your business. So, there’s that side of it. But as you’re successful, you feel like you’ve got more to lose a little bit as well. And what I also find with entrepreneurs and clients is the imposter syndrome somehow gets more rather than less.
Do you think that that’s associated with the risks being bigger? Tell me what your perspective is.
LILY: I’m not sure whether it’s the imposter syndrome associated with the amount or level of risk, especially in building a business. But personally, I do feel that my level of imposter syndrome really skyrocketed as I build and grow a business that works for me, and it’s really kind of different from what a traditional business looks like.
And certainly, I do agree that as I start to build a business that is getting more and more successful, which I’m so happy and grateful for. Certainly, I do feel that the risk involved is much higher. You know, my reputation is now on the line. People are starting to know about me. So how do I show up in the public forums?
How do I say things? How do I convey my perspective, while being respectful and while being able to have a productive debate with other people. So, I do feel that the risk is definitely higher and maybe because no-one around me or none of my friends have really started their own business. I kind of feel like I needed to find my community.
The journey of finding my community, I think definitely was a period where I just felt quite lost and unsure. And I think the anxiety, the stress, the overwhelm definitely kind of skyrocketed and really contributed to that imposter syndrome.
JAY: Yeah, and I think that’s where people, they either push through that and we call it resilience or they give up and they don’t want that kind of level of stress and strain so they go back and get a job.
And obviously, as people that work with people who are building their careers, you know you’re helping them to make the decision that’s right for them and not get in their own way with their own fears and lack of resilience in many respects. But that feeling of [being] alone and lost and unsure, I mean, yes, that’s where you want to be around like-minded people. And so that’s, I think tip number one to come out of it.
There was something else that you said about how I show up and I was thinking for myself as well that I think one of the things sometimes when I talk about “big me” and “little me”, we’ve probably done that in coaching as well, right? And so “big me” is all about blowing my own trumpet and like I’ve got this many years’ experience and you know posturing and we’ve talked about a lot of that. And I’ve got quite good at that but of course there’s still little me that shows up, and that’s the same for all of us, and I think the bigger the job or the bigger the reputation risk, as you said, the more “little me” starts saying ‘nah you’ve gone as far as you can, you know, what are you doing now’.
And that voice in your head, it’s like you’re going to get found out you’re going to get found out that you’re not as good as you put out to be. And I find that very stressful. I think a lot of people who are high achievers, which I would definitely put you in that. I think that hits a lot of people. And it’s quite natural and it’s not because we’re no good it’s just that that’s how it shows up when we’ve got a lot to lose.
I think it’s related to that risk that you mentioned as well. Yeah, interesting. So where to go next?
I’d love you to talk a little bit about how your own life experience and resilience has helped you to help others, but at the same time I’d like to dive into where that comes from for you. You’ve talked about how you show up and the fears around it, but how have you dealt with resilience and kept going when things are not going as well, or setbacks, et cetera? What have you done for yourself that works? And how do you apply that to your work with clients?
LILY: I think for me, it is really about reaching out to others. I think it sounds like a very simple and very obvious solution, but personally for me, one of the biggest challenges that I had to overcome myself was vulnerability, admitting that, you know what, it is really tough. You know what, I have no idea what I’m doing and I’m not even sure that I would even be successful.
And sharing those feelings and fears with my friends and with my network and with my closest people, I’ve always struggled with that. You know, somehow, I have grown to be this person that is always positive, always smiling, always optimistic. So, I kind of gloss over my challenges and quickly go to, yeah, but it’s not that bad. You know, on the grand scheme of things, it’s not that bad.
So, for me, it is really about figuring how I can reach out to my people, my network, and, you know, having conversations with them. So like you, with my friends, with my people that I meet up regularly, having those kind of conversation and talking it out without being judged, I think that certainly helps me to unload and really refocus myself.
And in a way, it’s also building my own resilience. That, you know what, this is just only one step along the journey, or one kind of rock or wall that I need to overcome along the journey. And talking it out is actually not that big of a challenge, knowing that there are people around me that are supporting me.
So, I think reaching out to people, it’s the biggest one.
And another thing that really supported my resilience and develop my resilience is meditation. I started picking up meditation or practicing meditation, three, four years ago. And to today, I try to do it every day. As soon as I wake up and on days that is really challenging for me, I do another meditation before I go to bed.
And I think that really helps me to also unload and make sense of all of the things that has happened throughout the day without affecting my sleep quality or without affecting how I go about being productive in my day.
So, I think that’s the two things that works. really well for me that I still kind of kept practicing to now. And it’s also the same kind of techniques that I use to support my clients as well, because this is something that I so believe in. And I tend to attract clients that are quite similar to me. So being able to hold a space for them to let it all out and not jump into problem solving. I think that has always been a key breakthrough for the people that I work with, especially in my one-to-one coaching sessions.
JAY: Well, that’s a lesson for all of us for sure, isn’t it?
And I think, you know, we’ve talked in the past as well about being able to move across the spectrum of like advising and consulting through to coaching and counselling almost in being able to do that. And I think sometimes we forget when someone’s trying to do something difficult or make a difficult decision or they’re facing challenges that that space holding has to be done before anything problem solving can happen, right? Because they have to be in the head space to be able to do that.
I’m actually really curious, what do you do when you meditate? Often, we talk about, oh, I meditate. So, I’ll take this opportunity to say, what do you actually do when you lay your head on the pillow? What, what happens? How do you take yourself through that?
LILY: So, I typically use a guided meditation.
For me, sitting in complete silence it’s not the best way for me to get into a meditation, so I typically use a guided meditation. The app that I use, that I have always been using is called Insight Timer. I think it is great. There are so many different types of meditation that you can try out, and I let myself be guided into the meditation. And at points where I drift away, it’s just the case of being gentler and refocusing on what’s happening at the presence. And just letting myself falling in and out of a meditative state, in a sense.
I would say it has been quite challenging for me to get into meditation because sitting still with myself is something that I’m not that comfortable with, even though I love my space and I love my silence. But I think the compromise I need was doing a guided meditation where I get a bit of both. That allow myself to fall meditation a bit and come back in. And kind of getting that balance that works for me.
Yeah, I mean it takes a bit of practice and I’m, thank you for sharing that because I’m really glad I asked it because I think actually, you know when people haven’t done meditation before and they don’t, they maybe sort of bypass it you know thinking it’s not for them. Often it’s because they haven’t given themselves the time to try and Like do it well. So just even your advice of like, we’ll start with a guided meditation you know, have some steps and have a process and then stick with it for a little while.
You know, it’s all about creating that space, as you said earlier, and you do that as a coach for your clients, but you can also do it for yourself is what I’m hearing.
Yeah, for sure. And sometimes halfway through a meditation, I fall asleep [laughs]. And that’s fine.
JAY: Yeah, better than television, for sure.
Lily, you’ve talked a little bit about what you personally lean into those two things, I think it’s really helpful. Thank you. When you’re working with somebody a question that often comes up for me, see if it’s the same for you, because obviously you’re doing different kinds of coaching. When does someone know how to tolerate stress and anxiety and unease, you know, when it’s maybe transient, you said on particularly challenging days earlier and sometimes it’s just like, oh, I was having a bad day. But when it kind of builds up how do you notice that it’s becoming something a little bit more chronic?
LILY: I think there’s two ways that I use to make that identification. And I use it for myself and with my clients as well. I think the first question is asking, is it consistent challenging days that I’ve been having? And over how long of a period?
And thinking into why has it been challenging? You know, what part of the day or what aspect of the work is challenging? Is everything challenging for you? Or just only certain parts of the day or certain aspect of the job that is challenging and that’s overshadowing what the entire day is. So, I think sometimes journaling and kind of being reflective is quite useful in that sense.
Another way that I have always find it helpful is in order to be proactive with this, it’s the concept of a stress container. Recognising that every individual, there’s only so much stress or overwhelm that you can hold at any given time. Some people’s container might be quite big, some people’s container might be quite small, but it’s recognising what’s in your container at the moment. Do you have space for another stressful activity to fall into your container, or is it going to start overflowing?
I think that’s quite a proactive way that you can use to think about what’s going on in your life, as well as at the bottom of the container, there’s a little tap. What can you do in terms of behaviours or action to open that tap to release some of those stress? And are those positive and productive behaviours and actions?
So, I think that’s a really useful exercise that I use for myself and for my clients when it gets to a point where you just can’t seem to find a way out and you’re struggling to get above the water.
JAY: I absolutely love that. And at the bottom of our container is a little tap. I’m going to borrow that shamelessly. I think that’s fantastic. Yeah, behaviours and actions that you can take to just release the pressure.
One of the things I remember it’s that sense of noticing how often you need to do the tap, you know, because sometimes we work, work, work, and then we collapse either at the end of the week or the end of, you know, a program or the end of, like, whatever is your thing, your cycle. Or we work like crazy until the next holiday, and then the first few days of the holiday you kind of waste them because you’re just flat out feeling exhausted.
I think one of the things that I take from that is that daily self-care and you know self-management is part of that care. You’ve mentioned meditation, you mentioned reaching out and being open and vulnerable with friends. What else would you do as part of the releasing that, opening that tap from time to time rather than one big thing that you might do, like a holiday?
LILY: There are many other things that I do. And I think it’s really dependent on how active do you need to be or how passive do you need to be. And I think the session we were in that the speaker talked about what are some of the active practices or the passive practices like exercising or journaling… [that was Jo Hafey who’s coming up later in the series here] … the different level of kind of activeness to it helps me in bringing variety and different ways in relieving some of those stresses, that overwhelm, and giving you some space or creating space for you to think or creating space for you to quiet down the noise.
And I think in essence, it is really the small behaviours that you develop every day or the small actions you do every day that is going to help build and reinforce your resilience. So, to your point, it’s not like this big holiday, but what are the daily things?
Also, kind of the unsexy things that you need to do in self-care and self-management that’s really going to make the difference in your resilience that no one really talks about. So, it’s like going to exercise or going out for a walk or reaching out to speak to someone. It’s small things that you would think that is quite obvious. But often when you look at yourself: how much do you actually do it?
JAY:Yeah. Or is that the first thing that goes when you’re super busy?
LILY: Yeah, exactly.
JAY: And yet it’s prioritising those things because you know that they bring you energy. It’s funny because like I coach on this a lot because it’s something that I take to heart. Like going for a walk is one of my go-to things and listeners of this show will know I’m a huge fan of walking, but I’m also a bit of a fair-weather walker. So, if it’s raining, I’m like, yeah, I think I’ll just get that other thing done that’s on my desk.
But actually, what I say to people is: it’s counterintuitive to thinking, well, I don’t have time to spend an hour going out for a walk or even half an hour because I’ve got this whole list of things to do, but you come back way more productive. And that’s something I keep telling myself because that’s the better story that you can tell yourself than the one that says, wow, it’s raining, I’ve got loads to do, so I won’t go out for a walk. Because that’s a story that’s not actually going to give you that sustained resilience over time. So yeah, I totally hear you on that.
LILY: I really agree. And I think a big part of building resilience, it’s the things that you do outside of work. So, a lot of the things that we have discussed so far are the things that we do out of work. And of course, there are many things that you can do at work in terms of the type of culture, the environment that you build, and as a leader, the example you set and the support you give to your team.
A big part of it also plays into how do we allow ourselves to have those positive habits in our life that’s going to help us build resilience at work as well.
JAY: Part of it is habits like your own personal habits and priorities, but that actually what I’m hearing here is building in, even at work, especially if you’re leading a team, building in things that allows space for those emotions and that sharing within the within the work environment.
There’s a book that we recommend to people called The Power of Emotions at Work and it’s a lot about that – it’s okay to be vulnerable. But then you need to create the space and the opportunity for people to be okay with that too because otherwise they’re like well I have to show up strong you know I don’t want to show weakness. I don’t want to feel like I can’t cope and I don’t want to say to people like I’m feeling overwhelmed.
So, of those things that we steer away from in the work environment, we take outside the work environment is what I’m hearing. But actually, if we can create the spaces inside our teams whether it’s your team, or you’re part of a team, then that’s going to be even stronger. You don’t have to go elsewhere necessarily. So, it’s the balance.
LILY: For sure, for sure. I fully agree with that. You know, you’re still a human being at work. You don’t change to a different person.You don’t lose your emotions. And I think we need to kind of clarify that people do show emotions at work. We show the more dominant and assertive emotions like anger, frustration being forceful, those type of emotion that has been normalised in the workplace, but we don’t show emotions. That is a vulnerability that is showing that, okay, I might not have all my ducks in a row that show us to be what we traditionally define as weak.
And I think those emotion that when we can hold a space, and share it, acknowledge it, and turn it into positive momentum, you accelerate your progress, you build a stronger and more cohesive and supportive team around you, and you also make it a better experience for everyone involved.
I think, you know, nowadays, when we look at leadership, when we look at people to guide us, to lead us to a different vision or to achieve your business vision, it’s: can I relate to you as a person as well, or are you this sage on the stage as then you would say that, you know, you’re preaching to us what is this versus you’re the guide by your side that is working with you, creating and achieving that vision. I think that’s something that I’m starting to see more and more shift. And more and more kind of focus on that type of leadership we are looking for.
JAY: Yeah, well, that’s brilliant. Of course, it taps very much into what your business is all about and who you help. So, I heard turn things into a positive stronger and cohesive, supportive team comes as a result of that and everyone gets a better experience. So yeah, it’s a very interesting dynamic, isn’t it, in terms of how we show up.
You said we’re all human beings, but we also wear lots of different hats and we hide some emotions and we share some emotions. And also, when you’re stressed, when you’re not being as resilient as you think you are, when you’re anxious or overwhelmed at work, it tends to come out, you said, you know, it comes out at work, it comes out with snappiness or like short temperedness with somebody or resentment even.
It can come out in very negative emotions if you’re not kind of dealing with it, communicating it and sharing it somehow. Or you feel that it’s all on you. I mean, we have this in a lot of different teams that I that I’ve been in over the years, is that each individual feels, “oh, it must be me”.
And that’s incredibly lonely place to be. But as soon as you share some vulnerability, as you said earlier, right at the beginning, and people go, yeah, I feel like that quite often as well. All of a sudden, it’s like, oh, I feel much better now just from that sharing.
LILY: I know. You’re just normalising it. But I think one thing I would like to be clear about is: yes, we need to be able to hold a space for those emotions at the workplace. But I think picking up and emphasising what you say is how you do it. So, the way you communicate it, it still needs to be professional. It still needs to be with mutual respect. It’s not that, oh, you know, I’m just feeling like I have a bad day and I can’t, that’s a permission…
JAY: I’m going to rant and vent, yes.
LILY: Exactly, exactly.
So that’s not it, that’s not it. You’re actually kind of creating more of a toxic behaviour than a productive behaviour. So, working with individuals and teams in developing how they engage and communicate is so important. I think that’s something that we don’t focus on enough at work, and also in life: how we communicate.
JAY: Yeah, the whole EQ, emotional intelligence. And we talk a bit about helping people and ourselves around emotional regulation, because I think sometimes people, when they are feeling very stressed, they kind of go back to being the child, and to having maybe a bit of a tendency towards ranting and venting because they don’t know how else to deal with it. So, there’s a bit of emotional regulation. But then you can beat yourself up because you’re dealing with it in an emotional way how it’s coming out.
So, say you have a client that turns up like this and they’re letting everything loose, they’re not containing it, they’re not regulating it, how would you start to work with somebody that’s feeling, you know, at that edge where their tap is, they can’t turn their tap on, so to speak, at the bottom of their stressor container, where do you start?
LILY: If it’s in a one-to-one coaching conversation, it’s kind of setting that boundaries or it sounds like you need some space to let it all out. Shall we just take 5, 10, 15 minutes and for you to just let it all out? On top of that, would it be helpful if we just take this outside? Whether is it an in person or a virtual coaching session, you know, let’s go to our phone, turn on our video call, and let’s take a walk together as you let it go.
And the purpose of doing all of this is how do I help them to release all of this pent-up emotion that until now that they have no space to work through for them to start making sense of what are they actually feeling and why are they feeling this way? And helping them to start quieting that noise in their faith so that they’re now back into a better state where they can start to address it and solve it.
And I think maybe another way to say this if I explain it correctly, it’s the chimp paradox, where you have the emotional side or the reckless side or the conscious and subconscious side is kind of helping them to move us back into more of a conscious and regular states where we can start to kind of make sense of what’s happening and addressing it.
JAY: Brilliant. Would you say that that is your superpower or would you like to share another superpower for rising resilient?
LILY: I think that that’s one of my superpowers. But I think another thing that I would say is a positive superpower or my superpower that I figure out myself, it’s learning how to be resourceful – looking at the situation, no matter how terrible it is at that point in time, and being able to take a step back and think about what can I gain and learn from this so that the next step or the next phase in that journey, I position myself better for it, or I figure another way to get to where I want to be.
And I think learning how to be resourceful is something that I also indirectly work with my clients a lot. Let’s not be always linear about how we get to where we want to be. What is all of the messy ways that we can kind of figure out to get there? And I think often it’s just developing that skill, attitude or mindset.
I’m not really sure how to, how to categorise it, but I think that that resourcefulness, it’s quite an important thing to start off being resilience to.
JAY: Yeah, and you talk about the messiness and I just remembered I saw a diagram that said: leadership is like this straight line upwards and to the right, but actually it’s more like this whole messy ball of tangled and twisted lines.
Also, you said about finding a way through, it’s a little bit about thinking out of the box, I’m understanding from what you said about resourcefulness. It’s not just about what resources you’ve got. It’s finding new ways of tackling things. And again, I think that’s best done with others.
Come back to your earlier point, is that, you know, a problem shared is a problem halved or two brains is better than one, that kind of thing. So, I think that speaks very much to that, which is why, of course, you work with a coach, and why people work with you.
So, this has been great. You’ve given us different directions and insights. Is there anything that you want to add that my questions sparked in you before we close
LILY: I think maybe one thing that I will add as my closing remark is be gentle about building resilience. It’s not a quick skill that you just wake up instantly and can say, yes, I’m now resilient, which I know can sound quite demoralising for people, especially if they’re going through a really challenging and difficult time, but resilience does take time to develop.
And it’s not something that you’re consciously aware of is it’s something that when the next time you face certain challenges or difficult situation, you realise that you’re able to overcome it a bit easier than the last. And it’s always a never-ending journey when it comes to building resilience.
JAY: Absolutely love that – be gentle about building resilience. And it’s funny because one of my previous interviewees Mia Sindolic was talking about putting on your Teflon coat. And I think that’s sometimes what we think about with resilience, there are several layers to your armour, if you like to call it that.
So really lovely point to have raised. Thank you and I hope you’ve enjoyed exploring some of these things with me.
LILY: Yes, for sure. As I was preparing and thinking about the topic, and why is such a big challenge in work right now to address and to solve this because, you know, there’s no one size solution to being resilience.
JAY: A lot of self-help out there, but like you were saying earlier, picking the things that work for you and giving it long enough to borrow some of those techniques that people are sharing for a while and see if they work for you and building up your own recipe and your own set of “taps” for your stress container. So brilliant.
Thank you again. It’s been a pleasure – thank you very much.
LILY: Thank you for the opportunity. This is a great conversation.
Connect with Lily
- Website lilywoi.com
- Lily’s Pulse articles
